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| Would you endorse the temp removal of the child |
| Yes, being brough up seeing parents use smack is abusive in itself, and therefore, it is justified |
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33% |
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| Yes, but the worry would be what to do about other addicts, such as drinkers... |
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| You would not remove the child for the observing the intake of smack, alone. Only if there was abuse. |
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| Something else, but say what! |
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| Total Votes : 6 |
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Rat_bytes
But is reflection proof of life?
Joined: 22 May 2023
Posts: 3108
Location: Australia
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 Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2023 3:53 am Post subject: |
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| clabhdhu wrote: | | You recognise social deprivation as a root cause and yet you dismiss social input as a basic preventive solution. |
Perhaps not social input, but I share the view that something more has to be done than simply "education". It would help if the mindless conservative governments got a clue and implemented some safe injecting rooms so at least one cause of death for junkies was eliminated. People don't seem to understand that even addicts have families.
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seattlegal
Oh look! It's a mirror!
Joined: 13 Feb 2024
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Location: fishing in muddy waters
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| Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2023 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Rat_bytes wrote: | | clabhdhu wrote: | | You recognise social deprivation as a root cause and yet you dismiss social input as a basic preventive solution. |
Perhaps not social input, but I share the view that something more has to be done than simply "education". It would help if the mindless conservative governments got a clue and implemented some safe injecting rooms so at least one cause of death for junkies was eliminated. People don't seem to understand that even addicts have families. |
But if they used these "safe injecting rooms," would the government take away their children because of it? Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
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Rat_bytes
But is reflection proof of life?
Joined: 22 May 2023
Posts: 3108
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2023 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| seattlegal wrote: | | But if they used these "safe injecting rooms," would the government take away their children because of it? Damned if you do, damned if you don't. |
What's the alternative? You seem to be full of condemnation but you're not exactly brimming with ideas.
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seattlegal
Oh look! It's a mirror!
Joined: 13 Feb 2024
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Location: fishing in muddy waters
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| Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2023 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Rat_bytes wrote: | | seattlegal wrote: | | But if they used these "safe injecting rooms," would the government take away their children because of it? Damned if you do, damned if you don't. |
What's the alternative? You seem to be full of condemnation but you're not exactly brimming with ideas. |
Condemnation for goverment distracting from the original purpose behind the law (abuse) in order to get around having to actually demonstrate abuse? You bet. It's like a scientist who theorizes without doing experimentation to back up his theories. In both cases, it's the foundation of the law, or of science, respectively, that ends up becoming degraded, leaving each respective system as baseless authoritarian pronouncements.
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Yahweh
Why isn't anybody listening?
Joined: 01 Mar 2023
Posts: 605
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2023 2:55 am Post subject: |
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To SG.
1) How many hard core addicts do you come into weekly contact with?
2) Given that you oppose the ideas being mooted by Rats and I, what are YOUR ideas, and saying 'education' over and over does not count, as I will just say 'been tried and failed', over and over...
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Rat_bytes
But is reflection proof of life?
Joined: 22 May 2023
Posts: 3108
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2023 3:13 am Post subject: |
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| seattlegal wrote: | | Rat_bytes wrote: | | seattlegal wrote: | | But if they used these "safe injecting rooms," would the government take away their children because of it? Damned if you do, damned if you don't. |
What's the alternative? You seem to be full of condemnation but you're not exactly brimming with ideas. |
Condemnation for goverment distracting from the original purpose behind the law (abuse) in order to get around having to actually demonstrate abuse? You bet. It's like a scientist who theorizes without doing experimentation to back up his theories. In both cases, it's the foundation of the law, or of science, respectively, that ends up becoming degraded, leaving each respective system as baseless authoritarian pronouncements. |
SG, I don't think you understand.
We're talking about the child abuse authorities being too lenient on people who neglect children. Without a doubt, child neglect = child abuse. Every kid deserves a parent who will put them as paramount above all other things, and a heroin addict CANNOT DO THIS, as there is only one thing that's a priority in an addict's mind.
There is absolutely no way that an individual who is addicted to heroin could succesfully rear a child on their own, a monkey would do a better job of it. I'm not so concerned about the rights of the parent, I'm more concerned about the rights of children, because they're the only ones without any choice in the matter.
I can understand where you're coming from with your argument, and for the most part I agree with you - there should be evidence of abuse - but the evidence of a heroin addiction in the parent should count, in itself, as evidence of neglect. If the kids are happy, healthy, rosy-cheeked little cherubs who are perfect in every way, then of course there'd be no need to take them away. But unfortunately in the real world the children of addicts have to put up with such indignities as not being washed for days on end, having to sit in their own effluent while their parents get high, they have to see all the opportunities offered to them be squandered by the filthy drug that cages their parents.
This is true injustice, and honestly I think not enough is being done about it.
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Yahweh
Why isn't anybody listening?
Joined: 01 Mar 2023
Posts: 605
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2023 3:44 am Post subject: |
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| Rat_bytes wrote: | SG, I don't think you understand.
We're talking about the child abuse authorities being too lenient on people who neglect children. Without a doubt, child neglect = child abuse. Every kid deserves a parent who will put them as paramount above all other things, and a heroin addict CANNOT DO THIS, as there is only one thing that's a priority in an addict's mind.
There is absolutely no way that an individual who is addicted to heroin could succesfully rear a child on their own, a monkey would do a better job of it. I'm not so concerned about the rights of the parent, I'm more concerned about the rights of children, because they're the only ones without any choice in the matter.
I can understand where you're coming from with your argument, and for the most part I agree with you - there should be evidence of abuse - but the evidence of a heroin addiction in the parent should count, in itself, as evidence of neglect. If the kids are happy, healthy, rosy-cheeked little cherubs who are perfect in every way, then of course there'd be no need to take them away. But unfortunately in the real world the children of addicts have to put up with such indignities as not being washed for days on end, having to sit in their own effluent while their parents get high, they have to see all the opportunities offered to them be squandered by the filthy drug that cages their parents.
This is true injustice, and honestly I think not enough is being done about it. |
All bits in bold are so true, and show that you MUST have spent time observing them at close quarters, as have I.
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Yahweh
Why isn't anybody listening?
Joined: 01 Mar 2023
Posts: 605
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2023 3:47 am Post subject: |
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| clabhdhu wrote: | You just like contradiction for the sake of it, do you?
| Yahweh wrote: | | Fact is, people take this particular drug, imo, due to social hopelessness and deprivation. Like drink, I guess it helps them from bouncing off the walls. |
You recognise social deprivation as a root cause and yet you dismiss social input as a basic preventive solution. |
It would help if politicians who's idea of 'drugs' is a large brandy, and who's concept of 'derpivation' was to only have one Jaguar and not two, were NOT the one's that shaped and formed policy, amigo.
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seattlegal
Oh look! It's a mirror!
Joined: 13 Feb 2024
Posts: 1644
Location: fishing in muddy waters
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2023 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| Rat_bytes wrote: | | seattlegal wrote: | | Condemnation for goverment distracting from the original purpose behind the law (abuse) in order to get around having to actually demonstrate abuse? You bet. It's like a scientist who theorizes without doing experimentation to back up his theories. In both cases, it's the foundation of the law, or of science, respectively, that ends up becoming degraded, leaving each respective system as baseless authoritarian pronouncements. |
SG, I don't think you understand.
We're talking about the child abuse authorities being too lenient on people who neglect children. Without a doubt, child neglect = child abuse. |
That's exactly what I'm saying: The law must concentrate on neglect and abuse. Taking the law off on a tangent detracts from the neglect and abuse.
| Quote: | Every kid deserves a parent who will put them as paramount above all other things, and a heroin addict CANNOT DO THIS, as there is only one thing that's a priority in an addict's mind.
There is absolutely no way that an individual who is addicted to heroin could succesfully rear a child on their own, a monkey would do a better job of it. I'm not so concerned about the rights of the parent, I'm more concerned about the rights of children, because they're the only ones without any choice in the matter. |
If you keep the focus of the law on neglect and abuse, there would be no need to shift the focus onto heroin, as far as the law is concerned.
| Quote: | | I can understand where you're coming from with your argument, and for the most part I agree with you - there should be evidence of abuse - but the evidence of a heroin addiction in the parent should count, in itself, as evidence of neglect. If the kids are happy, healthy, rosy-cheeked little cherubs who are perfect in every way, then of course there'd be no need to take them away. |
Exactly the point I've been making. Keep the focus of the law on abuse. Don't give the government any wiggle room to stray from this principle. If you give them an inch, they'll take a mile, and the next thing you know, they'll be taking away people's children for whatever reason--without a thought of abuse or neglect.
| Quote: | But unfortunately in the real world the children of addicts have to put up with such indignities as not being washed for days on end, having to sit in their own effluent while their parents get high, they have to see all the opportunities offered to them be squandered by the filthy drug that cages their parents.
This is true injustice, and honestly I think not enough is being done about it. |
Like I said, focus on the abuse. Can't you see, the government isn't doing its job when it comes to child abuse/neglect, and is trying to shift the blame onto drugs {or whatever proposed change in law they want to use to cover up their ineffectiveness.}
| Quote: | | "But it's not working. Children are still suffering abuse and neglect." |
Gee whiz, quit making excuses and get out there and enforce the abuse/neglect laws, and educate people. 
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Yahweh
Why isn't anybody listening?
Joined: 01 Mar 2023
Posts: 605
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Yahweh
Why isn't anybody listening?
Joined: 01 Mar 2023
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2023 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="seattlegal"][quote="Rat_bytes"][quote="seattlegal"] The law must concentrate on neglect and abuse. Taking the law off on a tangent detracts from the neglect and abuse.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | "But it's not working. Children are still suffering abuse and neglect." |
Gee whiz, quit making excuses and get out there and enforce the abuse/neglect laws, and educate people. |
Sg. By DEFINITION, a child of a smackhead IS being neglected. FACT. For all the reasons that we have told you, therefore, you cannot seperate the two.
I don't see how either I or Ratty are 'making excuses', nor do I see why we should (not that you know what we may or may not do), "get out there and enforce the laws", I am sorry, I thought the tax that I pay for the police was meant to do that.
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seattlegal
Oh look! It's a mirror!
Joined: 13 Feb 2024
Posts: 1644
Location: fishing in muddy waters
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 5:12 am Post subject: |
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| Yahweh wrote: | | seattlegal wrote: | The law must concentrate on neglect and abuse. Taking the law off on a tangent detracts from the neglect and abuse.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | "But it's not working. Children are still suffering abuse and neglect." |
Gee whiz, quit making excuses and get out there and enforce the abuse/neglect laws, and educate people. |
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Sg. By DEFINITION, a child of a smackhead IS being neglected. FACT. For all the reasons that we have told you, therefore, you cannot seperate the two. |
Try telling that to the addict. If you don't want to take the trouble of pointing out the (drug-induced) abuse to the addict, how do you expect the addict to make the connection? {If you don't point out the abuse/neglect to the addict, how do you keep the addict from thinking that the child(ren) were removed because of prejudice against addicts, and not because of abuse/neglect?} In the case of removing child(ren) on the basis of smack, the addict is given the opportunity to see himself as a victim of prejudice, whereas in the case of removing child(ren) on the basis of abuse, the addict cannot shift the blame back onto prejudiced laws, and must accept the responsibility.
| Quote: | I don't see how either I or Ratty are 'making excuses', nor do I see why we should (not that you know what we may or may not do), "get out there and enforce the laws", I am sorry, I thought the tax that I pay for the police was meant to do that.
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I was talking about applying the pressure to the government to enforce the abuse/neglect laws.
Any time you shift the attention away from harm/abuse/neglect, you open the way for those on both sides of the argument to shift the blame for their own shortcomings. Abuse/neglect represents empirical evidence, whereas smack alone represents theoretical evidence. Theories can be argued, which gives room to shift blame. Hard evidence of abuse leaves little evidence for argument, which also leaves little room to shift the blame.
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Yahweh
Why isn't anybody listening?
Joined: 01 Mar 2023
Posts: 605
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 12:16 am Post subject: |
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| Yahweh wrote: | | Yahweh wrote: | To SG.
1) How many hard core addicts do you come into weekly contact with? |
Bad form to quote one's self, however..... |
4th time.
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Yahweh
Why isn't anybody listening?
Joined: 01 Mar 2023
Posts: 605
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 12:22 am Post subject: |
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Sg writes
"Abuse/neglect represents empirical evidence, whereas smack alone represents theoretical evidence."
You don't really do listening to others, do you Stephen?
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Last edited by Yahweh on Fri Aug 18, 2023 8:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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seattlegal
Oh look! It's a mirror!
Joined: 13 Feb 2024
Posts: 1644
Location: fishing in muddy waters
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 7:14 am Post subject: |
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| Yahweh wrote: | Sg writes
"Abuse/neglect represents empirical evidence, whereas smack alone represents theoretical evidence."
You don't really do listening to others, do you? |
I admit, I'm not partial to listening to repetitive chanting.
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